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the rachel maddow show, transcript 04/03/09
A place to help immigrants and refugees adapt to American life today became the scene of the massacre in Binghamton, New York.
Authorities say a gunman entered the building of the American Citizens Association and began shooting.
Target includes a room
Packed with people, packed with immigrants who are said to be preparing for the citizenship test in class.
To be on the safe side, dozens of people kept themselves in a basement or closet until the police were finally able to enter the building.
They found the gunman suspect in the building, apparently from
He committed suicide. It‘s a self-
Now Live in Binghamton, New York, is NBC\'s Ron Allen.
Ron, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us.
What can you tell us about the latest news?
NBC News correspondent Ron Allen: Well, the latest news is that authorities have searched the Gunners \'home in Johnson City, not far from here.
They took away computer hard drives, rifle boxes, some small suitcases and other things.
There are also reports that they have confirmed
They found a pistol licence with the same serial number as the two handguns found on site.
Despite reports that the gunman had a rifle before, he apparently had a pistol.
Including him, there are currently 14 deaths.
The last news I heard was that there were still four people in the hospital in critical condition.
It all, again, at around 10: 30 a. m. when he rushed into the civic center, met two receptionists sitting there and shot and killed one --
Both of them were shot.
We have some of his voices.
From there I heard stories about what she did. (
Start Video Editing)
New York\'s Bingham ton Police Chief Joseph zidankkey: what she did was pretend she was dead after he shot her dead.
She fell to the ground.
He went to a room near the reception area and shot a few people, and when he left she climbed down the corridor of the building, and for some time after that she called us(END VIDEO CLIP)
Alan: what the authorities don\'t know is how long the gunman was in the building before all this happened.
At 10: 30, I called 911.
Still, the back door was blocked.
The siege lasted for hours until around 3: 00.
By then, the police finally cleared the building and found what they thought was the body of the gunman, with a bag of ammunition wrapped around his neck.
This solves the whole thing, but the authorities are still trying to identify all the victims, the Gunners, and trying to solve this terrible scene on this street near Bingham Town CenterRachel?
MADDOW: Tonight, Ron Allen from NBC at Binghamton live with us-
Thank you very much, Ron.
Good luck to you. Thanks. Matthew T.
Ryan is the mayor of Binghamton, and Joseph Zikuski is the police chief.
Mayor Ryan and director Zikuski, thank you for joining us on this toughest day.
ZIKUSKI: You\'re welcome. Mayor Matthew T.
Ryan from Binghamton, New York: Thank you, Rachel. MADDOW: Mr.
Mayor, let me ask you first, who is this gunman?
What are the possible motivations for this incident?
Well, we really don\'t know.
We know he\'s obviously out of work recently and he\'s a little upset.
He doesn\'t speak English well and has been telling some of his family and people about things that don\'t respect him and he doesn\'t seem to be very happy with his life.
Chief Zikuski, judging from the local reaction, the siege lasted for hours and you were reminded of the siege, in part because the very brave receptionist pretended to be dead and then called you when he was injured.
How do you assess the overall response of your troops
Where are you from the police force and the authorities in Binghamton?
Do you have the resources you need?
Did you do the job you wanted to do?
Our reaction time is less than two minutes.
All the shootings were over before any police arrived at the scene.
The New York State Police, the Broome County Sheriff\'s Department, responded very beautifully and we didn\'t even ask them for any help.
They scanned it.
The States scanned each other and they heard the phone ringing and I handled all the resources of the entire Broome County Sheriff\'s Department and the New York state police in just a few minutes before I got there myself.
Shortly after that, ATF, IMS, FBI, (INAUDIBLE)
So, we have everything we need.
We have a very good one. trained;
I believe in one of the best SWAT teams in the state, but we also seek help from the SWAT team in the Sheriff\'s Department, as well as a Metro team from a small agency.
So we have everything we need to deal.
MADDOW: Chief, let me ask you how the siege unfolded in light of what we know about the gunmen blocking the back door of the facility with vehicles, it seems like a well-planned, pre-planned
Meditate and think about events in advance.
Do you have any evidence, do you see any indication that this is something that may have resolved a lot of details in advance and that he may have planned for a while?
ZIKUSKI: We found no evidence.
But I agree with you.
Apparently, at least this morning, he knew clearly what he was going to do, and put the vehicle on the back door of the Civic Association so that no one could escape.
So he obviously
You know, at least this morning.
Go to that place with the intention of doing everything he does. MADDOW: Mr.
Mayor, do you have an update on the situation of the four injured victims or other people we may not know at the moment?
No, there are only four others. They are—
Has been listed in critical situations.
So, we are very worried about them and pray for them tonight.
But we have started reaching out to the families of all the victims. They—
To some extent, the process of elimination begins to realize who is dead because there are still a lot of identification procedures that need to be advanced.
But I think most families now know that their loved ones have not returned home yet and that they have come to our Red Cross center, the Catholic charity and we are starting to make sure they have advisers.
As we move forward, the whole community is trying to help them.
This is a truly helpful community during these tragic and difficult times.
We suffered two historic floods in 2006.
We only had one murder last year, which was very unusual for us.
Obviously, for the sake of our community. But they will—
This community will come together.
We will be strong.
We plan to watch the night for the whole community tomorrow, and then we will start the treatment process, which obviously takes some time.
Can you describe to our audience what kind of facilities this is?
We know there is-
This is a place where immigrants come to learn English to prepare for the citizenship test.
What other services, what facilities is this?
This is a great facility.
It does help.
We have a large immigrant population and they do make a huge contribution to our community and they are proud to be citizens.
I have been to many of them.
Ceremony when they become citizens, it\'s just-
They celebrate different cultures, many different cultures.
You know, we have a small city of 45,000 people, but there are 32 languages in our public high school.
So, this is a very important part of our population, and they have contributed a lot. They celebrate.
We hold a national festival every year at the Broome County Veterans Memorial Arena.
So, they\'re us-
Obviously, we all miss those who die and celebrate their contribution to our community.
MADDOW: the mayor of Binghamton, Matthew Ryan, chief of police, Joseph zirongji, is clearly part of your response as a community leader to have the united front work hard to talk to the media, let people know what\'s going on
Thank you for your time tonight.
What we think about your community.
Thank you so much, Rachel.
ZIKUSKI: Thank you.
Next: The latest news of the president\'s trip to Europe, the strange results of the budget
Vote in Congress
There\'s a lot to come.
Anna Mary Cox is our guest. coming up next. (
I had the opportunity to interview former Secretary of State Colin Powell the other night.
Among other things, we discussed his meeting with other senior officials of the Bush administration, where severe interrogation techniques, torture were discussed.
In my opinion, the atmosphere in the interview room became tense in the part of the interview, which is what I said during the interview --
When I introduced the interview on the show
The secretary\'s office has now written to us saying that this is not a \"proper description\" and that the secretary himself was not nervous or uncomfortable during the interview.
Quoting this sentence, he just felt that the questions \"wasted time on the questions he had already answered.
\"I personally don\'t want the guests on this show to feel like they are portrayed in a way that they don\'t intend to portray themselves.
I was assessed by sombre that the conversation was tense, but it was fair to have General Powell tell you how he felt, not to have me describe the impression that I felt about him.
I felt very nervous for the record. He did not.
My full interview and interview record with General Powell is online: Rachel. MSNBC. com. (
MADDOW: If you recently feel good about yourself, how others see you, and are happy with your position in life, let me know where you want me to send this rain in the parade. (
Start Video Editing)(
Applause and cheers)(END VIDEO CLIP)
President Obama is welcomed in France as if he were Jerry Lewis and benadin Seidan. ph)
The whole idea of Brioche became one.
Even conservatives like French President Nicolas Sarkozy will not allow such a reception in his country without any impact on him.
Today, Obama has taken more photos with Michelle than Michelle.
Obama brought a political approach from home, the town hall meeting, and he carefully crossed the minefield, which explains the decline in American world status over the past eight years. (
Start Video Editing)PRES.
Barack Obama, the United States: in the United States, there is no awareness of the dominant role of Europe in the world.
The United States has repeatedly shown arrogance, disdain, and even ridicule.
But in Europe, there is an-
American, both casual and sinister.
Let me make it as clear as possible that the US is changing, but it is not just the US that is changing. (END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: President Obama\'s trip to Europe is very impressive and has been well received so far. Strangely, world leaders have issued many statements on how the economy is recovering now, we\'re all back on track.
At the same time, at home, we have new unemployment figures that seem to counter this.
This is the unemployment rate in early 2008, hovering around 5%.
By the time the banks began to receive the bailout, it had jumped to more than 6%.
We\'re here now.
Yes, this is a steep slope in the wrong direction.
We\'re about eight. 5 percent now.
On the eve of this terrible news, our Congress is passing a budget, and obviously this has become a model, budget with amazing zero Republican, nada, zero, zip zippo.
This is the official staff lighter for Rachel Mado.
Republicans are whips to keep all their members in a strict party structure.
So, even if you\'re Joseph Cao representing a massive Democratic area of the state of Luis Anna, you kind of like Obama\'s budget --
No, you can\'t vote for it.
We are the party of zippo with zero votes.
Keep in mind that it is also the zero Republicans who voted for the stimulus.
Now, voting for Republicans to vote for zero on the budget should also clarify for Democrats, but whatever they do on big deals like budgets, like stimulus plans, to save the economy, they won\'t get the Republican vote.
They just don\'t.
Whether or not they play down their policies in order to attract Republican votes, those votes will not come.
What you\'re dealing with here is the party of zippo, not the party of the \"brothers, let\'s reason together.
\"We learned political lessons from the budget vote, which comes from the other side of the conservative side we \'ve been following
Declaring moderate Democrats, who have just set up a new group in the Senate, openly opposed, or even privately opposed, the staff of the program, should not be seen as opposed to the president\'s agenda.
Evan Beher and two of his conservative Democratic colleagues said in the Washington Post, \"We have no intention of downplaying the president\'s agenda.
We intend to strengthen and sustain this process.
Without Democrats and moderate efforts to find common ground with rational Republicans, the president\'s agenda is likely to be forgotten.
\"In other words, conservatives say they don\'t object to the president\'s agenda at all?
Instead, they say they are the only ones who can pass the agenda by attracting Republicans to vote.
They are all loyal supporters.
Where are you ready for the money?
In the budget vote, there is no Republican obstruction, no threat of obstruction, there is no need to let the Republicans come over.
Declared Conservative leader, voted against
Strengthen and maintain the president\'s agenda by voting against it.
The president\'s glimmer of hope in the party\'s prospects for defeating the defector is clearly a very short line to line up with him.
When Senator Bayh voted against Mr. Obama\'s budget, another Conservative member joined, only Ben Nelson. That was it.
The number of Conservatives may not be that large, but, you know, they can now show their fiscal conservative principles more easily.
Now, there are only two of them.
They can meet in a phone booth or on a motorcycle.
They can meet on a very small seesaw.
Now joining us is Anna Marie Cox, national correspondent for Air America Radio, a contributor to The Daily Beast.
Anna Marie, thank you for joining us tonight.
Anna Marie Cox, American Radio International
Reporter: It\'s good to be here.
Rachel, can this seesaw be perfectly balanced?
I think that might be the case. (LAUGHTER)
MADDOW: or just, it will be on the side all the time.
Or they all sit on one side.
MADDOW: Yes, the fulcrum will be fully weighed in the wrong place.
They will sit on one side. Yes. (LAUGHTER)MADDOW: (INAUDIBLE)
I can see my metaphor.
But, in general, do you join me at the Conservatory of Music in the Senate?
I was surprised by everything Evan Baher had.
The Democrats, known as moderate, abandoned him on the budget?
Cox: Well, I\'m more sympathetic to conservatives than you are.
But we can have a discussion at other times, preferably at a cocktail party.
In this particular case, I think there are two points that need to be obtained.
One is that it turns out to be the best.
While Evan Bayh may not support the president\'s agenda, it turns out that a lot of Conservatives, when they sit down, look at the budget, look at their poll numbers, and maybe look at the economic situation, they decided to continue voting with the president. (CROSSTALK)
MADDOW: But, I mean, in 2003, more Democrats voted against Clinton\'s budget than that.
Six people voted against him in 93.
Now we have only two left.
What I meant to say was.
Have you ever seen Evan byher? MADDOW: Yes.
Cox: two are exciting for him. (LAUGHTER)
He can go with two people.
Two are better than one.
One is the most lonely number.
Are you saying his threshold for influence is low? COX: I do.
I think, you know, there\'s a reason he basically gave up his presidential campaign before he started.
I mean, I do understand what you think about the Clinton budget.
I do think that.
I also think-
I am also serious, and I think these Democrats are looking for mid-term elections and they are betting on the president\'s success.
They thought it might be feasible.
So, in the end, I think they\'re going to be on the side of history, they\'re judging this budget, voting for it, and they\'re going to be on the side of history.
MADDOW: Well, on the other hand, we don\'t have a Republican vote.
I want to know-
You have great connections in the Republican world.
I was wondering if you heard this from them and they would brag about the way they brag about zero tickets on the stimulus plan.
I mean, would we expect Eric Conto\'s office to play more Aerosmith \"back to the saddle\" videos in this movie?
Cox: You see, most of my contacts in the Republican Party are smart. MADDOW: Yes.
Cox: So, they\'re not talking about bragging about this in the mid-term exam.
They are making a thoughtful decision.
As you said, they are making a thoughtful decision that goes against the president\'s policies.
I think it\'s very, very cynical.
I think for most of them they don\'t have a particularly principled objection to this budget because they obviously
I mean, the hypocrisy of the Republican Party on the deficit issue and what has not been pointed out before.
But I think it\'s just saying, no.
What you said before
Within the ring road, Eric Conto\'s ability to keep all his people in line is considered very impressive, but you don\'t think it\'s necessarily an impressive intellectual achievement
They didn\'t do anything, they didn\'t help anyone, and to be honest, I don\'t think they helped themselves in the mid-term elections.
So, let me ask you, Joseph Cao, a Republican who might be on the verge of extinction.
The Republican congressman from the state of Luis Anna, who was elected in a lucky election, came to a very Democratic area,, william Jefferson, the Democratic congressman he tried to succeed, had a lot of legal problems. Louisiana—
He seems to want to vote for Obama\'s stimulus plan, and he feels his voters want him to vote for it, at least he said so.
But Republicans won\'t let him vote, and they won\'t let him vote for the budget.
Do you think a Joseph Cao can do the right thing through his career and his politics here?
Well, you know, I obviously can\'t get into his mind and I don\'t think I want to do that either.
Every decision made by the representative is two things they weigh, or what their constituents want, and what the party wants.
Everyone makes such a decision.
In fact, I think Evan Bakh may have weighed his voter opposition to his party in this particular case.
I don\'t have much sympathy for those who say they have to or are forced to vote for something, because unless, like, you know, Eric Conto points a gun to his head, he may have a gun, but I still don\'t think you can take them to the mountain.
I don\'t think it\'s possible for someone to get you to vote for something.
I\'m really curious, though, that the leadership can use a way to intimidate, especially new members of parliament, that the threat does not help. election.
MADDOW: he will definitely need it in this place. COX: Yes.
Anna Mary Cox, can-
What is the guest-
Air America is going to three noon today? (LAUGHTER)
The result was really tight-making. (LAUGHTER)
I don\'t know how you did it.
I often say \"well \". MADDOW: Yes. COX: Yes.
But I really like listening to music.
Oh, very good.
As a radio host, Bumper music is a great pleasure.
I think you did a good job. COX: All right. Thank you. MADDOW: Thanks. All right.
The new president played politicians and salesmen today in an attempt to win European support for his great American ideas.
We are about to release a sales report.
Big news from Iowa today.
Who thinks gay couples can get married in Sucheng before New York? (
MADDOW: a Republican senator, who has never been notified by many countries before, spent most of his four years in the Senate flying under radar, decided, he wants the country to understand his problems, the way he became famous for himself, the way he will name his name as Coast to Coast is to personally stop this man Tammy Duckworth
Amputees, war vets in Iraq and the whole country
Respected veterans advocate in V. A.
The senator\'s name is Richard Burr, and I will never forget that now.
We will have more news about this.
But, first of all, it\'s time to tell a few sacred mackerel fish stories in today\'s news.
This is good news for Americans who support gay legal entry rights --
Just like straight. Yay! Contracts.
Iowa has also legalized it.
Same-sex marriage today
The state Supreme Court agreed that the 1998 law defining marriage as between men and women was not constitutional.
The court was quoted as saying, \"We have a constitutional obligation to ensure equal protection of the law.
If gay people must accept different treatment without very convincing reasons, they are deprived of the benefits of the principle of equal protection on which the rule of law is established.
In other words, separation is not equal to separation. Duh!
In Iowa, gay people can get married legally in just 21 days.
A preliminary analysis of the impact of the award appears to indicate that it will take at least a few years for the state to revoke the court\'s decision by any means available.
State Senator Matt McCoy, the only openly gay member of the Iowa Legislature, responded to the ruling by inviting gay and heterosexual couples from Iowa to consider coming to Iowa for marriage. All right.
Next: If politics is high school, figuring out who\'s going to be a presidential candidate is a bit like figuring out who\'s going to be the Queen of the ball, Sarah Palin is now starting to play a fable role, the guy showed off his car in the parking lot five years after graduating from high school.
As you know, the Justice Department dropped the federal case against former senator Ted Stevens this week because the prosecution in his case was completely unsuccessful.
It is puzzling that this decision led to a call by former vice presidential candidate, current Alaska Governor Sarah Palin, for Mark bagy, the man who defeated Ted Stevens in the November election-
She asked him to resign.
She wants Begich to resign. She wants to do it.
In that election
So far Governor Palin\'s thoughts have been greeted with a resounding and skeptical \"well
Republicans in Washington.
I mean, when George Bush\'s approval rating drops to dogsdoo-on-your-
After his re-election, did American voters do one thing? over?
When Adrian Brodi wins an Oscar and then kisses Harley Berry in this rough way, is there an end to the film academy?
When I was on Jimmy Fallon\'s show and poured alcohol on myself, did I go back to the past and re-shoot? No, I did not.
Alaska Congressman Don Yang has another proposal.
He said Ted Stevens should run for Alaska governor in 2010 to succeed Sarah Palin.
This will make Ted Stevens 87 years old as governor.
What did we talk about before we talked about Alaska politics? Honestly.
Finally, give me this riddle.
What happens if a state does not have people like China, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Texas to execute the death penalty?
Prisoners are still being killed in Washington state.
The most popular way to impose the death penalty in Washington state is to give prisoners lethal doses of drugs that will kill you.
Now in Washington, the Thurston County High Court has a case that challenges the death penalty for injection on the grounds that if the drug is not properly managed, it can be very painful to be killed in this way.
This may amount to torture to death, thus constituting cruel and unusual punishment for violating the constitution.
This is an incredible thing.
The case prompted the resignation of four anonymous members of Washington\'s injection death squad.
The four were reportedly concerned that the lawsuit would result in their names being made public.
Their identity is such a secret that even the head of the national prison system does not know who they are.
This, of course, means that we have no way of knowing whether the executive team is qualified to carry out this abnormal medical procedure, which, if not done properly, could lead to the death of someone who has been tortured for a long time.
It can also be convenient to remind people how few euphemism and pseudo-words are used.
The medical decorations surrounding this process have changed its brutal facts. (
President Obama continues his European trip today in Strasburg, and I have always forgotten France.
He was there for a big NATO meeting where he launched the Phase 3 sales plan for his Afghanistan war plan.
The first phase is to sell it to Congress and to American politicians.
In Washington, the first stage, there are only minor objections brewing on the left and right, and I think we have to consider passing.
The second phase is sold to the American public.
Recent polls in Afghanistan show that the jury is certainly not involved in public opinion.
The second phase has not yet been decided.
In the third stage, sell it abroad, sell it to NATO, sell it to our allies, and try to convince them that it is better to join us in Afghanistan now than when George Bush was still in office.
So far, the third phase of sales looks good.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy said in talks with Obama today that the French \"fully support and support President Obama\'s new Afghan strategy.
He promised to send more police trainers and civilian personnel to Afghanistan.
He even promised that, in theory at least, France would receive a prisoner from Guantanamo.
After raving about the new Afghan war plan, Sarkozy relaxed his views on the president himself. (
Start Video Editing)
Nicolas Sarkozy, president of France (
By translation): I trust him.
I don\'t need a guarantee. I trust him.
I believe his words.
I believe in his wisdom. (END VIDEO CLIP)
In other words, no matter what this person sells, the French are buying it.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel also met with President Obama today and promised more help in Afghanistan.
Quoting Obama, his attitude towards the war was \"gratifying \".
\"But even if the president\'s plan is successfully sold to our allies, of course, there are still big questions about whether it is a good idea or not, and there are still questions that are not answered thoroughly.
President Obama says his goal is to defeat the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
He said he wanted to deny it.
Both countries are safe havens for al-Qaida, which sounds like something everyone would agree --
There\'s no safe haven for terrorists, right?
But maybe it\'s a bit simple, in a way that we really can\'t afford to leave.
As Matthew Yglesias wrote this week on \"thinking about progress\", \"recall that the key actions in the 9/11 conspiracy took place not only in Afghanistan, but also in Hamburg, Germany.
The best governance plan in history will not make Afghanistan as orderly and prosperous as Germany.
Well, you know.
Even if the alliance builds President sales campaign is progressing better than anyone has predicted, will we first raise the big wrong question about what we are doing in Afghanistan?
Andrew Exum is joining us now.
He is a researcher at the New American Security Center and author of the man\'s army: the story of soldiers on the front line of the war on terror. ” Mr.
Thank you very much for coming to this show tonight.
Andrew Exxon, \"this man\'s Army\": Thank you for inviting me.
MADDOW: In an article this week, I will quote your own. Are you ready? EXUM: Ready.
MADDOW: \"Even if we have succeeded in spreading effective governance to southern Afghanistan and western Pakistan, are we prepared to go anywhere where transnational terrorist organizations are relocated?
Are we ready to clear the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon?
Or governance for the Horn of Africa?
Obama\'s plan is a dangerous precedent.
If the reason we stay in Afghanistan is to deny
Al Qaeda uses safe haven, where are we going next?
\"Your main concern is that there are too many safe havens to eliminate them?
First of all, I would say that Obama\'s plan is a very good plan if it is to achieve specific political goals and close safe havens across Afghanistan and Pakistan in the Pashtun region.
I think a lot of the operating lines that come in, their non-
The kinetic energy line of the operation.
We have decided that you cannot die in these wars.
You must improve governance.
You must improve your economy.
You must provide basic services to the people.
But this is very worrying in terms of precedent, right?
Because if we have a safe haven in Afghanistan and Pakistan, what should we do if there is another safe haven in the Horn of Africa? Or do we then -
What is our relationship with the Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon?
So I think this is a question for the future and I will ask that question.
So you\'re basically saying we can do that in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
This will be a resource intensive project.
It will take a long time, but we can do it by the means proposed by the president.
The question is whether we will take the responsibility to do it everywhere. EXUM: Yes.
Well, I\'m not even sure.
I\'m not even sure about the first proposal because what we\'re basically doing is taking counter-insurgency strategies as third parties.
The trick to doing this is that real success, political success, depends on another government.
Therefore, if Afghans do not have any form of political reconciliation or any form of improved governance in Islamabad, it will be difficult for us to implement the strategy we have proposed.
MADDOW: Well, it doesn\'t seem like governance issues in Afghanistan or Pakistan will be resolved soon, even though I am an eternal optimist and I hope they will be resolved for a while.
Within the time frame that Americans are willing to continue working on the region, it seems unlikely that we will see enough transformation changes, not only in the capitals of these countries, but in terms of local governance, to work effectively with our big proposal.
That\'s why I\'m-
Although I understand the logic of this plan, I still have a lot of questions about it.
It seems to me that governance must happen at the same time as our investment, and I don\'t believe it will happen. EXUM: Yes.
I mean, I think your concerns are reasonable.
I think our priority in Afghanistan is to protect the people.
This is something we haven\'t done very well since 2001 and 2002.
To be honest, we don\'t have the resources to do it.
So I think that\'s the top priority.
But the second priority.
You\'re right. is working on -
To be honest, I think of Afghanistan as the world\'s most corrupt 176 out of 180 countries by Transparency International.
So corruption is a very big problem in Afghanistan, again, trying to get the government of Islamabad to cross the border and extend control to federally administered tribal areas into the Northwest Frontier Province --
These are very difficult problems.
We have more influence than in Afghanistan.
Or in Pakistan.
But it will still be tricky.
MADDOW: one of the things --
One of the often concluded conclusions that assholes like me have never served in the army like you, and have not actually used such things in the field.
One of the conclusions we have come to is that expanding the military footprint in Afghanistan could actually backfire on the goal of keeping the population safe, and our long-standing occupation could incite more Taliban, more extremists may support their views in a way that ultimately makes the population less secure than safer, although we have more people there.
What do you think?
Well, I think it\'s a concern.
I think you have to take responsibility for a case. by-case basis.
In this case, you know, nevertheless, many international aid organizations do worry that you will do so.
Indeed, they are concerned that the situation of the Afghan people will deteriorate once we enter the fighting season, especially with the influx of new forces.
Nevertheless, and the specific situation in Afghanistan, I believe that more troops may be wise decisions, at least in the short term. term.
For now, we do have an obligation to protect the people.
This is something we have not done well in the past five years.
However, the direct influx of US troops in Pakistan on the other side of the border could be a very bad idea.
So, just like every rebellion is unique --
They all come from a specific social, political, and cultural environment.
It may be a good decision to increase the Army in Afghanistan.
S. Direct action in Pakistan could be a bad decision.
This is a difficult problem to solve.
MADDOW: I commend you for bringing this up this week.
I think this week\'s hard-to-counter intuitive question, that safe harbor could be a bad target, could be a bad proposal for US action to move forward, especially outside Afghanistan and Pakistan, extremist organizations may threaten our actions.
I would like to know if you think there is a better option in addition to rejecting a safe haven for terrorist organizations, which will be a better organizational principle to move forward.
Because we had this dichotomy before the review, we were either anti-insurgency or anti-terrorism.
If we take counter-insurgency strategy, it will cost a lot of money.
It will cost a lot of resources, not just financial resources or supplies.
I also say a lot of casualties, whether from our perspective or on behalf of our NATO allies and Afghan civilians, remember.
So it will be a very intensive job and a very expensive one.
The real bad news, on the other hand, is that I think what is really strict is completely dynamic and that\'s just trying to stop us from coming out of this solution --
A fully dynamic counter-terrorism strategy
I think, especially in Pakistan, it will be very unsuccessful.
I think it is not good to do so.
Having said that, I think, you know, what you heard from the president last week is that he talked a lot about indicators, how to measure success, how to measure failure.
I think this will be something everyone will look for in the next 12 months.
Violence will be a very bad indicator for your audience for the next 12 months.
Violence may increase.
But if we are as violent as we are today
The year from now is better than what we do today, and that\'s why we worry.
I think we can look forward to the violence.
But whether we can build security is actually a key issue a year from now.
MADDOW: Is there a good indicator to focus on in the short term
In the coming months?
It\'s interesting, you know.
One unit in eastern Afghanistan, one of the indicators they use is the variety of vegetables on the local market, because it tells them who is planting opium poppy and to what extent farmers diversify their crops.
So we have to be fairly creative about our metrics.
In Vietnam, the Marines use rice production, not the number of bodies.
I am not sure what is the best indicator for Afghanistan.
But I will give you an answer.
MADDOW: I only deployed to the farmers market to count vegetables.
Andrew Exxon, a researcher at the New American Security Center, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
It\'s really good to know your point of view. EXUM: Sure. Thanks. Yes.
MADDOW: Enter the \"Countdown\", which is late at night to the right --wing.
Guess who won?
Coming up on this show, first of all very important photos
Chinese female fighter pilot team
Really, I swear.
MADDOW: when Republicans are looking for meaning in political minorities, the latest program by a Republican senator prevents Tammy Duckworth from holding senior positions in the Department of Veterans Affairs.
Duckworth, a major in the National Guard, lost her legs in 2004 when her helicopter was attacked in Iraq.
She is an evil, intelligent, effective and enthusiastic veteran advocate across the country.
But now, Republican Richard Burr from North Carolina has decided to postpone her nomination in person.
He wouldn\'t say why.
His spokesman said, \"he is doing his best to ensure that the veterans have the best representation. ”Due diligence?
About the decorated Iraqi war veterans who helped the Illinois Department of Veterans Affairs become a veterinary national welfare leader, and who has a national reputation?
Senator Burr, how about now trying to do the right thing and pick a different high horse to ride?
You chose the wrong fight here. (
MADDOW: there is a professor at the University of Georgia. His name is Han S. Park.
Of course, the University of Georgia is located in beautiful Athens, Georgia.
But on any given day, doctors are likely
The park is not in lovely Athens, but in the terrible little tin pot capital of Pyongyang, a deeply, extremely unlovely city that starving people and feeding the army dictatorship led by this guy, this guy gave jumpsuits and left a bad name for Kim Jong UnIl.
Despite KIM JONG-UN-
Il is generally unfriendly to foreigners, even if he is particularly unfriendly to Americans,
Park has still entered North Korea more than 40 times.
Including two American journalists arrested three weeks ago.
Laura Wong and Luna Lee are American journalists working for the current TV station, which is Al Gore\'s TV 2.
0 sets of clothing based in San Francisco.
On March 17, North Korean soldiers arrested two journalists in North Korea. Chinese border.
They have been detained since then.
Now, it is clear that they will be charged with hostile acts.
No one knows what it is, but the charge could have sent them to one of the notorious North Korean prisons with 10 years of hard work or even worse.
The current television does not preach about the situation.
Gore did not talk about it publicly.
The family members of the reporter did not speak publicly about the matter. Even the U. S.
The State Council is quite low. than-
A low profile of public statements.
At this week\'s press conference, reporters had to pressure a State Department spokesman to even say that our government wanted the journalists to be released. (
Start Video Editing)
Unidentified men: Do you think it is possible for them to get a fair trial?
Gordon dujid, deputy State Department spokesman: we have seen news reports again that there will be allegations, but we have not been charged through diplomatic contact.
We will continue our diplomatic efforts to see if we can help our citizens.
M: Well, do you want to release them?
Dujid: of course, we would like to see our citizens released home. (END VIDEO CLIP)
Of course, we want to see our citizens released.
We have, of course.
Did I forget to say that?
I\'m not criticizing you.
I mean, we have to assume that everyone is tight-lipped about this crisis because there is sensitive reverse channel negotiations going on somewhere.
Everyone is trying to avoid any unnecessary provocations that could hurt the chances of getting MSLing and Ms.
Li goes home safely.
I am personally in the moment of jumping up and down and lighting my hair.
I am very angry about this.
But I don\'t think it\'s going to work, so I will exercise restraint.
I did not hold back except in my mind.
This is a truly amazing new news about the fate of Laura Wong and Luna Lee.
But keep in mind that they are not controlled by some cockamie guerrillas or terrorist groups.
They are not controlled by some cartels looking for ransom.
They are controlled by a foreign government.
Here\'s new news about the prospect of our safe home for them. Dr.
American professor Hahn Parker who spent so much time in North Korea
He now told reporters that after Ling and Lee were arrested, concerns were expressed to North Koreans about how these women were treated, because North Korea starved to death and the prison labor camp they could never go home.
North Korean officials responded to concerns about how these American journalists, Euna Lee and Laura Ling, were detained, saying \"we are not at Guantanamo.
\"Full reference from Dr.
\"We are not Guantanamo.
That\'s what they said.
\"That\'s what North Korea is saying to the Americans they are detained now.
This is how the whole international status operates, not just political science, not just arguments, when two young American women live under the indefinite supervision of a government that sees the United States as an enemy.
We ask how long they will be held and they will fight back, \"Well, it\'s been seven years and you \'ve held hundreds of foreigners in the offshore prison at Guantanamo.
We asked about the charges.
What is this absurd accusation?
They will fight back, \"Well, at least we\'re charging them.
How many prisoners are charged at Guantanamo, Bagram and CIA prisons?
\"We asked how these American women were treated, and they were quoted by the approved list of intensive interrogation techniques, and from the transcript of Dick Cheney on television, we were quoted as saying, \"Water punishment is nothing. ”(
Start Video Editing)
ABC journalist Jonathan Carr: Do you think any tactics we take against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and others are too much?
Former US president Dick Cheney: No?
Carl: of course, on KSM, one of those tactics that are widely reported is waterboarding, which seems to be tactics that we no longer use.
Do you think even that would be appropriate? CHENEY: I do. (END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: now there is a new president who has very, very different ideas about interrogation and prison than Bush and Cheney.
But it caused damage to some extent.
We do not want Americans to be imprisoned in foreign countries for many years without charges.
We do not want Americans to suffer.
If we are going to take back the power to prevent Americans from suffering from this kind of thing, don\'t we need to make it clear that the United States believes that no one should treat others like this?
I know Washington is obviously not interested in Sen.
The truth committee of Leahy
But perhaps the need to solve the problem is greater than Washington\'s political appetite.
Maybe it will extend 13 time zones to every corner of the world, where Americans may find themselves in trouble and need some help. (
MADDOW: tonight our cocktail party is a Singapore sling from the People\'s Republic of China.
I can\'t think of a good Chinese cocktail.
Women are allowed to fly fighter jets for the first time in China, which is very exciting.
Yeah, for progress.
The top 16 female pilots graduated from the Third Army Aviation Academy yesterday.
They were all awarded the rank of lieutenant.
They will make a public appearance on China\'s national day on October.
But the Chinese government
The running newspaper published a photo of the new pilot with some useful titles such as \"pilot trainees spinning wheels in the exam \".
\"This is a good example,\" the pilot trainees encouraged each other during physical examination.
\"Not entirely sure what the physical examination includes, but they do seem to have a good time.
In terms of actual flight, the state-
The running doesn\'t seem to have any action shots of them flying the plane, although they do have classic runway shots like Tom Cruise in the top cloud, they have the classic touching like Christian Bell in The Empire of the sun.
Of course, there\'s a classic picture in the cockpit, probably from Luke Skywalker and Star Wars.
Just when we found out that there was nothing these female fighter pilot pioneers could do, there was also a state-made photo showing a pilot dancing with a lot of bubbles.
Obviously, it\'s part of the graduation ceremony, although I\'m pretty sure that male pilots in China don\'t have to dance with bubbles in shiny costumes to win their wings.
China\'s cause of equality has taken three steps forward and two steps back.
Thanks for watching tonight.
We see you Monday night.
Oh, I just thought of a good Chinese cocktail, bamboo.
I will post on \"Rachel\" tonight. MSNBC. com.
\"You can always
Email us at rachel @ msnbc. com.
Our podcast is iTunes or Rachel, our website. MSNBC. com.
You can hear me from the coast to the coast on Air America.
Keith Olbermann\'s \"Countdown\" is now on.
Have a good evening.
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